#428 - GEORGINA WILSON, Founder & Principal of Georgina Wilson Associates
SUMMARY
This week David and Marina of FAME Architecture & Design Georgina Wilson, Founder and Principal of Georgina Wilson Associates. The three discussed Georgina’s childhood and education; her early career and the start of the architecture firm; why she started her own office; the ‘Ask an Architect’ social media; reoccurring issues in floor plan design; educating the public about good design; Architects connecting and communicating with the general public; and more. Enjoy!
ABOUT GEORGINA
Georgina Wilson is the founder and principal of Georgina Wilson Associates, bringing with her over 20 years’ of experience designing award-winning homes and commercial spaces. As the creative director and principal architect Georgina’s designs offer both beauty and practicality, with each project facilitated by her talented team, under her expert instruction.
Georgina takes great pride in translating the all-important client/designer conversation into spaces and structures that are illustrative of the way each of her clients want to uniquely live, work, and play.
Having won a number of prestigious architecture design awards as well as acting as a judge for architecture and design awards programs, Georgina’s reputation is highly regarded by peers and happy clients alike.
TIMESTAMPS
(00:00) Georgina's early childhood & education.
(13:39) Georgina's architecture education experience.
(25:38) Why Georgina started her office.
(30:12) When the office gained traction.
(36:09) ‘Ask an Architect’ Social Media.
“With so many houses being built without the benefit of good design advice, I feel like it’s a waste of money and resources. I guess that's where it [Ask an Architect] started. I also witnessed most of my architecture colleagues scrambling to serve the top 0.1% of the population. It’s all about, “Oh, I'm working on a $30 million build.” And that's regarded as successful. So, I see the whole architecture industry scrambling to service that 1%, but what I'm interested in is servicing the rest of the population. There are a lot of people who are looking to build but they can’t hire architects.” (41:15)
(45:06) How ‘Ask an Architect’ Works.
(50:34) Architects who don't know how to design floor plans.
(52:37) Reoccurring Issues in Floor Plans.
“A configuration of an ensuite and a walk-in wardrobe, but neither of the spaces work as they're meant to. For example, the bathroom is too small to be functional. The walk-in wardrobe gives you less storage than a cupboard and the bedroom is compromised as a result. Yet someone is walking around and stamping these plans with this same pattern. The walk-in wardrobe that’s meant to be a demonstration of luxury, I don't understand that.” (53:00)
(57:03) Workload of ‘Ask an Architect’.
(01:05:21) Educating the public about good design.
(01:13:02) Architects communicating to the public about good design.
“I've noticed there seems to be quite a lot of negativities towards architects generally around my [social media] account, and I was just asking people, why is that? It's interesting to get thousands of responses to that question. A lot of architects are awkward, maybe it's because they're shy, but there were a lot of comments about how architects don't communicate well. I know it's a very challenging thing to be able to communicate effectively in that architect-client relationship, even for people who love to talk. That was just a massive theme that came through from the ‘normies’.” (01:16:24)
“A lot of architects think it's important to impress their peers because that's how they win the awards, and that's how they perceive that they're going to move up that value ladder. But it creates a whole culture of architects talking with architect language and just not being very relatable to ordinary people who ultimately are the ones that want their homes built. I mean, there are different types of architects, so maybe they work in commercial spaces and that might be completely different. But in residential design, I think it's very important to be able to communicate with normal people.” (01:18:32)
(01:21:29) Georgina's favorite building.
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#426 - NOAH WALKER, President & Owner of Walker Workshop
SUMMARY
This week David and Marina of FAME Architecture & Design are joined by Noah Walker, President & Owner of Walker Workshop. The three discussed Noah’s childhood and education; his early career; the Oak Pass project; Walker Workshop timeline; maintaining design integrity in design-build; benefits of design-build projects as an architecture-focused firm; mixing architects with construction specialists; Walker Workshop’s design process; clients' response to design-build model; challenges in growing a firm; and more. Enjoy!
ABOUT NOAH
Noah Walker, AIA, is an American Architect and the founder of Walker Workshop, a Los Angeles-based company renowned for creating modern structures that are warmly minimal and deeply rooted in the context of their location. One of Walker’s first projects, Oak Pass House, gained international acclaim, including winning “Home of the Year” in 2016 and inclusion in the ArchDaily 100, a list of the 100 most important works of Architecture in the United States. He was a finalist for HGTV’s Fresh Faces of Design in 2017 and, most recently, named one of “the Esteemed 10 International Design Visionaries” by est Magazine. His work is featured in Dwell, AD, est., The Local Project, and The Los Angeles Times. Walker received a Master's in Architecture from Harvard University and a Bachelor of Arts in the Growth and Structure of Cities from Haverford College in Philadelphia, PA. He has over twenty years of global experience in high-end residential projects, with a specific focus on design-build methods of project delivery. Noah is both a Registered Architect and a licensed general contractor in the state of California.
TIMESTAMPS
(00:00) Noah's education and early career.
(13:50) Oak Pass project.
(22:19) Timeline of Walker Workshop.
“I think one of the great joys of doing what we do in architecture is the level of inventiveness we can bring to every project. We try to create a unique, magical quality that is hopefully different on every project. If I start doing projects that are cookie-cutter copies of the previous one, I would be a little disappointed in myself. Part of the joy of architecture is finding something that's really special and uniquely tailored to all of those constraints we deal with. One thing that makes the profession so interesting and rewarding is the level of limitation and constraint that you have to navigate to create something that is hopefully a work of art. It's that sort of navigation that can be fun. It can be exhausting, but it’s a joy when you get it right.” (28:01)
(29:17) Maintaining design integrity in Design-Build.
(32:59) Benefits of design-build projects as an architecture-focused firm.
“I want to design like we're going to have to build the thing. It creates an ethic about making and construction. Even with our design-only projects, we think, “Oh, maybe we will build this. Let's figure it out in a way that we could execute [it in construction].” With architects that aren't as connected to [construction], there is a gap between what they envision and what has to happen to create the project. A lot of translations take place and sometimes it's an impossible road. It's great for the office to be grounded in the fact that we're still making things and constructing. It’s important for the office's philosophy or identity and I don't want to give it up. I think the projects we've built can stand on their own and are beautiful, magical homes. There's a sense of reward when you show up and not only did you design the place, but you also created it.” (33:38)
(43:09) Future plans for Walker Workshop.
“The level of creative dilution that happens as you become a bigger firm can be pronounced to the point where it doesn't feel like it's the same product anymore. For me, that probably taps out at around 30 people…When the architecture firm’s brand is based on a person, there's a lot of strain on me oftentimes because I have to be at every client meeting. For example, if I'm not there or it looks like I've passed the project off to another person in the office, sometimes I get a phone call saying, “Oh, we hired you...” The dilution of the principle’s time and the scaling of that is [tricky to navigate]. It becomes a trap when you start to brand yourself based on a personality or a name versus a more generic way of working.” (43:45)
(45:22) Design Process of Walker Workshop.
“I often say that the design process is like a spiral and the goal is in the middle, but it's never a direct path to that solution. You can see it there, but you're not going straight towards it. You're moving around it and hopefully, you’ll find it eventually. But it's a process of macro-level decisions in the beginning and constant refinement as the project develops.” (48:13)
(52:51) Clients' response to design-build model.
(55:21) The Architecture team’s influence on the design-build portion of the office.
(58:55) Challenges in growth and evolution of Walker Workshop.
“For younger architects, the benefit of being in the office has been notable. Being around your peers and listening to them talk; picking up on a phone conversation; or talking to somebody next to you about details; there's so much more learning and progress happening when people are together in a hive mind versus at home. It's easy for somebody to become lost at home, and you may not hear from them for days. It's like, “Well, are you still working? What's going on?” Even just walking to the conference room, I might see something on somebody's monitor, and it gives me a chance to stop and say hi, or help them make appropriate corrections promptly. Whereas when they’re working at home, I might not be able to drop in as easily. It makes the process more efficient.” (01:04:50)
(01:12:05) Noah's favorite building.
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#424 - DREW LANG, Founding Principal of Lang Studio and Founder of Brick & Wonder
SUMMARY
This week David and Marina of FAME Architecture & Design are joined by Drew Lang, founding principal of Lang Studio and Founder of Brick & Wonder. The three discussed Drew’s early childhood and education; architects losing passion; alignment and communicating with clients; the architecture community & exchanging with peers; Brick & Wonder philosophy and operations; networking; and more. Enjoy!
ABOUT DREW
Drew Lang is the founding principal of Lang Studio where he works closely with design teams, clients, and collaborators to create architecture with enduring presence and purpose in cities, and across natural landscapes.
Drew was born in New Orleans where he developed an early passion for both nature and architecture. After completing his architectural training at Yale University, Drew settled in New York City, where his practice is now based.
Drew is an active advocate for positive collaboration and founded a community called Brick & Wonder dedicated to supporting and connecting real estate and design professionals.
TIMESTAMPS
(00:00) Drew's early childhood & education.
(11:32) Architects losing passion & alignment with clients.
“One of the things that I found to be extremely helpful is to make it clear to clients how they need to be accountable to us and to hold them to that. It's very, very hard to do, especially early on in one's career. But if I don’t do that, things go awry without fail. It's easy to lose track of what everyone's roles are and what people are responsible for doing. I think it is part of our job to guide the client and tell them what they need to do.” (19:42)
(21:57) Communicating with clients.
“No matter what it is, it comes back to communication. Whether it's an issue of payment, design decision, programmatic clarity, budget clarity, or schedule clarity. It's our job to ask the right questions and to explain to the client why it's important to have conversations about these things. How often have clients come back to us and say, “I told you our budget. Why did you keep asking me for more and more as you watched the budget go up and not saying anything until now?” It's our job to be proactive and stay many, many steps ahead.” (22:41)
(29:58) Community in Architecture & exchanging with peers.
“If we can gather a thoughtful and talented group of professionals who work across the built environment, then everybody is very well served, and everyone's problems start to dissipate. Because you have ready solutions that’s a phone call away, or a warm introduction away as we're part of the same community in Brick & Wonder. It's networking, but networking of a different sort. We all have negative associations with networking and Brick & Wonder is trying to amend that. People come into the community, and they feel good. They feel welcome and there's an understanding that people are there to help you. Ultimately, it is about helping people grow their businesses where they want to grow them and do project collaborations with the kind of people that they want to collaborate with.” (32:23)
(37:59) About Brick and Wonder.
(52:35) Short term vs long term networking.
(57:03) Location of Brick & Wonder operations.
“That term leapfrog is one we use all the time because we think of Brick & Wonder as a vehicle for everybody to leapfrog where they want to go, no matter where they're coming from. As they participate in the Brick & Wonder community, they skip some steps that they would otherwise have to take. We all know what it's like to reinvent the wheel and slog through figuring out how to go where we want to go. Wouldn't it be better to be able to tap people who have the know-how, the resources, and the energy and enthusiasm that can help take you there because they know how to do it? You don’t have to figure it out yourself.” (01:01:23)
(01:03:23) Brick & Wonder Members vetting process.
(01:11:12) How Brick & Wonder was founded.
“Brick & Wonder is set up to solve this collaboration problem. Who are you going to work with and not going to work with? I get a lot of satisfaction from introducing good people to each other and seeing them succeed. So, I thought, “How can I create a formal framework that makes it easier to do that?” In the Brick & Wonder framework, it's much easier because there's a built-in system of accountability and trust. When you introduce colleagues to each other or refer a colleague to a client, you are putting your reputation at stake. We all do that, and we know what that's like. One of the reasons why people are so fearful and have a scarcity mindset is because the downside is too great. So, we're mitigating that and solving that problem too. That's why I started Brick & Wonder.” (01:14:27)
(01:18:21) Drew's favorite building.
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#422 - MORGAN SYKES JAYBUSH, director of hospitality projects at Omgivning
SUMMARY
This week David and Marina of FAME Architecture & Design are joined by Morgan Sykes Jaybush, Director of Hospitality Projects in Omgivning. The three discussed Morgan’s early childhood, education, and career; his interest in adaptive reuse; the market for adaptive reuse; types of projects; financial viability; the importance of adaptive reuse; interesting discoveries; challenges of working with historic buildings; employee alignment with firm’s mission statement, and more. Enjoy!
ABOUT MORGAN
A fourth-generation Angeleno, Morgan Sykes Jaybush is one of the original members of Omgivning. He grew up in and around downtown LA and has been a part of its revitalization for quite a while, so he's a natural fit for our work. He escaped big city life for coastal living while in architecture school at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, and then worked at the Peggy Guggenheim Collection in Venice, Italy, for several years.
Hop in his '66 Cutlass Supreme to cruise over to his house, where you'll find his collection of vintage designer chairs and clocks. He's the most upscale and organized hoarder you'll ever meet.
TIMESTAMPS
(00:00) Early childhood & background.
(03:31) Early architecture education & career.
(18:15) Interest in adaptive reuse projects.
(36:22) Types of adaptive reuse projects and financial viability.
(43:27) Why is adaptive reuse important?
“Putting a whole building into the landfill is terrible for the carbon footprint, [especially if it's a high-rise building.] There are also historical and neighborhood cultural reasons to try to keep some of the existing [urban] fabric because it makes the place where we live richer. There are so many Type V buildings being built across the city that it's hard to tell the difference between them. I think you lose the uniqueness of different neighborhoods when there is so much of the same stock being built everywhere. [I worked on] this old craftsman house in Silver Lake, which was used for 50 - 60 years as a florist shop, and this Japanese family lived there and ran the shop. Now, we're turning that into a hotel and restaurant bar. It's opening that up as a space that people remember, but they can also go and experience it forever now.” (43:48)
“It's not only people that have been [in a city] for a long time who feel connected with its history. Even in a place you haven't been to, you feel that warmth when you go into an old place that's been renovated and turned into something new and cool. There's still a connection that you have with it that's different than going into a new construction building that has beautiful, sleek concrete but it's cold in some ways. It doesn't mean that [modern buildings] don’t have a place in the city. This place is big enough for all these things to happen.” (47:18)
(51:51) Interesting discovery in adaptive reuse projects.
(55:27) Dealing with challenges in adaptive reuse projects.
“Honestly, the historic building codes are not super helpful, but there are things that we can use from that. Almost every time the stairs are not code-compliant, but we can write a modification to allow that. It allows us not to bring the windows up to [the new building code]. It allows us to use older versions of the mechanical code. There are a lot of challenges. A lot of times [adaptive reuse] are so expensive to do, that we get historic tax credits with the National Park Service. So that gives you around 20% of your construction cost back in tax credits. It's great, especially when some projects cost $60 million.” (56:00)
(59:54) Architecture firm size & work environment.
(01:07:31) Employee's alignment with office mission statement.
(01:09:51) Convincing clients about adaptive reuse.
(01:17:10) Morgan's Favorite Building.
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#420 - ADAM BRAWER, Founder of Adam Brawer Estates
SUMMARY
This week David and Marina of FAME Architecture & Design are joined by Adam Brawer, Founder of Adam Brawer Estates. The three discussed Adam’s childhood home; his early career and education; previous career as a music, film, and TV producer; transitioning from the entertainment industry to real estate agent; communicating and managing expectations with clients; gamifying real estate and bringing good energy; spiritual cleansing in real estate; and more. Enjoy!
ABOUT ADAM
Adam Brawer is an authority on the Los Angeles residential real estate market, having called Los Angeles home for the past two decades. Adam's knowledge, meticulous attention to detail, and best-in-class client service allow him to offer an exceptional experience when buying or selling property. Combining his personal and professional network with a high-level entertainment background, Adam helps clients prepare and market their homes with a Hollywood flair, ensuring each property is uniquely positioned. Offering expert guidance throughout each phase of the process, Adam looks at each sale as a partnership where he and his clients are fully aligned in the outcome. Adam is often praised by clients for selling their properties for above market value in the shortest period of time.
Depending on each client's unique circumstances, Adam builds a team around them ensuring their needs are met. Whether it is ground-up development, renovation consultation, or real estate investment guidance, Adam and his team provide a complete custom service. This service-based approach has led to extraordinary results, as evidenced by his remarkable track record and client loyalty.
As a former film producer, Adam believes storytelling is an essential aspect of marketing, so he weaves narratives into every campaign. Known to some as "The Spiritual Realtor" Adam's approach is unique, often employing energy healers and burning sage in homes prior to listing them. When not selling property, Adam is known for his healthy lifestyle; yoga, tennis, hikes, breathwork, cold plunges, and meditation.
TIMESTAMPS
(00:00) Introduction.
(08:18) Adam's childhood home, early career, and education.
(21:51) Music background & producer experience.
(32:53) Transition from entertainment to real estate.
(41:25) Film producers & architects similarities
(46:05) Communication & managing expectations with clients.
“Managing expectations is extraordinarily important. There are several milestones in purchasing or selling a home. Most people think when a 2 million dollar offer for a home is accepted, it'll stay at 2 million dollars when you close escrow. But there's always a second negotiation or more during inspections and that will bring down the closing price from the initial offer. So, language is extremely important in how you frame a conversation and deliver the message. It could be the same message delivered 70 different ways, and you'll have 70 different reactions.” (46:46)
(52:54) Gamifying real estate.
“When I gamify something, the stakes feel lower. The process feels more enjoyable, and I'm no longer as stressed about a specific deal. It’s more like moving pieces on a board and having fun. I would take a step back and have more of an omniscient perspective on what's going on, and then I would dive in with enthusiasm, a lot of energy, and a much faster pace. The stakes didn't feel quite as high because it felt like I was playing a game instead of sinking or swimming in real life. So, I would act a little bit more fearlessly. I would take bigger risks. I would communicate differently because I wasn't as concerned about how something would be received. I emboldened myself with more confidence because I was less scared.” (53:14)
“I've realized in this game of real estate, the more I am myself, the better I play the game. I have this motto of “ABC - not always closing, but always celebrating”. The spirit of celebration is contagious. Everybody wants to be involved in the celebration. So, I'll create open house events that are like a celebration with champagne, sound baths, live music, and food to create an experience for the buyers to step into so that they can feel the home differently and be part of a celebration. It's led to some incredible results.” (55:03)
“The energy at home is priceless. If it's a divorce sale or a death in the home, depending on the severity of the situation, I either set intentions and sage the entire home myself to clear the energy or if it's a rough space, like a contentious divorce, I have what's called a home healer. She brings smudges, drums, and native chanting. She is like an energetic seance in the home to clear it out before I list it so that it's a fresh start and a blank slate. Any stagnant and heavy energy is dispelled, and it’s no longer part of the home.” (58:48)
(01:02:27) Meeting clients at their level of consciousness & spiritual cleansing.
“If a client wants to micromanage a sale, I try to sit them down and explain, “This is what I do best. Allow me to do my best work. I will get you the most money, the best buyer, the best terms. We'll close quickly. You'll be really happy.” …For these clients, I'll lead them through breathwork and guided meditation to relax them. So, for certain properties, I'll do an intention-setting ceremony with the client which involves sage, intention, breathwork, and a guided meditation that I'm leading. At the end of that process, they're always 100% on board.” (01:04:48)
(01:13:25) Burning Man and Adam's favorite building.
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#418 - AUTODESK FORMA & INSIGHT
SUMMARY
This week David and Marina of FAME Architecture & Design are joined by Ellis Herman and Ian Molloy from AutoDesk. The four discussed Autodesk Forma; how Forma works; Carbon analysis in Forma; Autodesk Insight; workflow and dashboard for Insight; adjusting parameters in Insight; challenges of incorporating analysis in design; accuracy of analytical tools; future of architecture software; and more. Enjoy!
TIMESTAMPS
(00:00) Introduction.
(03:16) What is Forma?
(06:53) Forma project location setup.
(13:47) Forma building analysis and Forma Board.
(31:13) Carbon Analysis.
“I think “Actionable Prediction” is a great phrase to describe the challenges of [the design process]. You're drawing loose sketches and ideas [during the design phase], but you're also making big decisions that set the project’s direction in terms of how it deals with the carbon, energy, wind, site conditions, etc…To design a building, you need some information to work with, but you also need to do something to have information. It's so difficult to get it right. I can certainly understand [the benefits of] software that’s easy to use and has standard tools so you can start working without having to ask many questions. Because when you're at the beginning of a project, you don't have a lot of information.” (44:48)
(58:53) Ian Insight introduction.
(01:07:21) Autodesk Insight workflow steps.
(01:17:25) Insight Dashboard and Embodied Carbon Detail.
(01:31:22) Adjusting factors in Insight.
“At the end of the day, all analytical models are imperfectly perfect. Meaning that they're imperfect, but they're perfect for the job that needs to be done now, which is at an early stage. I just want to know what percentage of roof I should use for PV, and how much I can get the client to pay for carbon offsets. It's perfect. You don't need anything more than that. The fact is there are so many different questions and so many ways to look at this data. Sure, you can use Excel or other tools, but they are all complicated. We want to create a tool that an average architect or engineer can get into with reasonable ease to help them understand and get started with building analysis. We want to encourage conversations between architect, client, and engineer around topics like “What are you assuming about this? Do you have a good rule of thumb for that?” (01:38:18)
(01:39:30) Challenges of incorporating analysis into design.
(01:45:33) Accuracy of Insight analytical tools.
“We have seen firms at every scale use it [Autodesk Insight] mainly because it’s accessible. It's already in Revit. We try to keep the barrier as low as possible, and it provides users with something useful. No, it doesn’t have every analysis you need. No, it's not going to do the LEED documentation for you. However, it allows people to be students and gradually learn about certain analyses and exchange their knowledge with colleagues. Eventually, they grow enough confidence to engage specialists and have productive conversations. The experts are also able to curate the way they believe analysis should be run at different stages in the process, for different project types and different firms, and that knowledge can be democratized a lot more easily.” (01:44:06)
(01:49:52) Future of architecture software.
“We're at the beginning of caring about and measuring embodied carbon. So, the data that [Forma] is trained on will be more easily accessible. It will become better and more consistent, which will allow us to create better predictive models more easily. As an industry, we are going to align more and more with reducing carbon intensity, which will make it easier to compare designs and therefore get answers to whether a design is good for the environment. That is a question that is hard to answer currently.” (01:51:12)
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#416 - JONATHAN SEGAL , FAIA Architect & Developer
SUMMARY
This week David and Marina of FAME Architecture & Design discuss are joined by Jonathan Segal, FAIA architect and developer. The three discussed Jonathan’s early career; his car business; his career as a developer; his thoughts on being a developer; architect-developers; the challenges of being a developer; his future plans; and more. Enjoy!
ABOUT JONATHAN
Jonathan Segal FAIA & Development Company has been awarded six national AIA Honor Awards for their housing work.
They have been responsible for the design and development of over 300 medium to high-density urban residential, mixed-use, and live/work units totaling over 300,000 square feet of construction.
Segal is considered one of San Diego, California's most successful and pioneering residential architectural/development companies and has a reputation for providing superior housing at a lower cost than comparable properties. Their focus is exclusively on urban projects, ranging from 80 to 160 dwelling units per acre.
Segal has been the recipient of numerous accolades including 40 local, state, and national AIA awards for residential and Urban Design.
Over the past twenty years, Segal has created and modeled the unique practice of "Architect as Developer", a prototype in which the architect has the ability to become the owner, therefore eliminating the client and the general contractor from the design and building process.
TIMESTAMPS
(00:00) Jonathan's early career.
(04:10) Car business & business thinking.
(08:41) How Jonathan became a developer.
“The budget for 11 units is approximately $1,800,000. What do you think my permit fees are for that work? That's right, $300,000. I paid $300,000 to build 11 apartments that are 600ft² each. And the city of San Diego is wondering, “Why is it so expensive to live here?” If you go and look at some of the ‘affordable housing’ [that’s getting built], let's say up in LA, they are $1 million a unit. I'm building them for $294 per square foot, which I think is insane. So that's around $200,000 a unit for me to build these things because I just cut all the fat out. All those affordable housing projects have just fat, fat, fat, fat...So, they all have to be subsidized by the federal government.” (15:56)
(18:36) Thoughts on being a developer now.
“There's always going to be an opportunity. It's always going to be evolving and different. I think all the generations look back and go, “Wow, it's so much harder now than it was when they started.” When I was starting, the generations that were finishing or moving on probably looked back and went, “Wow, it's so much easier when there was just unlimited land we could just build forever.” In some ways, it's always going to be more difficult, and I think there's always going to be opportunities.” (19:13)
“I believe firmly that the most humane, livable product type is a three-story building. The bottom floor is retail with a two-story residential unit on top of it with exterior circulation, all parking on grade, and nothing underground. The daylight, openness, air movement, cross ventilation...this is the best way to go, versus an eight-story building with elevators and underground parking. It's just inefficient and expensive.” (24:33)
(26:37) Balance design principle and profit.
(33:51) Single-family vs multi-family development.
(49:41) Why aren't there many architect developers?
(56:31) Dealing with risks and liabilities as a developer.
(01:03:30) Construction and property management.
(01:11:14) Future plans for Jonathan.
“Start with building your own house. Start building four units and start working your way up the food chain. Start small and go through the whole process. What happens is that people will start. doing a project and when they get 50% through, they'll start the next one. But they haven't learned if the first one will succeed or fail. Then they both fail because they haven't seen…all the problems that happen and learn to resolve those issues.” (01:13:18)